Ch’ien Chan: Challenging The Status Quo

Full Podcast Transcript

Katrina Collier 0:00
Hello, I am Katrina Collier, and as part of my mission to inspire all the people, that recruit people, to treat people better, I bring you The Hiring Partner Perspective (Unedited) podcast. Here you will hear from those Hiring Leaders who create true partnerships with Recruiters, HR and Talent Acquisition, because they know that it delivers a better result for the business and a better human experience. May this podcast inspire other Hiring Leaders to create better partnerships with their Recruiters and HR, and may it inspire Recruiters to create true and valuable partnerships with their Hiring Leaders. Because people make businesses succeed, and people matter. So let us begin.

Ch’ien Chan, welcome to The Hiring Partner Perspective (Unedited) podcast proudly supported by the people at WORQDRIVE. Welcome.

Ch’ien Chan 0:54
Thank you. Thank you.

Katrina Collier 0:56
Having jokes about Chen Chen. Now I just started and couldn’t get your name out, honestly. And you’ve been beautifully referred to me by Heidi. West Dini. And I’m so grateful for that, which means you’re an exceptional hiring partner. Of course, I can’t wait to talk about that. But before we get that, tell us how you sort of ended up in a career in design? Was it destiny to end up in design? Or did you fall in it, too? It’s like we do into recruitment.

Ch’ien Chan 1:20
While so I’ve always been sort of creative inclined, I started out as a painter and a sculptor. Oh, wow. Yeah. But when you know, when it was time to look for a career, it was like, Okay, I don’t want to be a starving artist. So we can make money while being creative. And at the time, you know, going into advertising seemed like the sort of sensible thing to do. And I was brought up in Hong Kong did my GCSEs and a levels, and I wanted to try a different system. So my parents were really open to an American system. I applied to Boston University, they had a great communication school. And so that’s kind of how it started. And because of my a levels, I had all these extra credits. And in the mid 90s, there was this class called web design. And I was like, What is that? And so, you know, you know, this, this whole podcast is about challenging the status quo. Yeah. And my dad had always encouraged that and said, Son, try new things. And I was like, all right, I thought I was computer illiterate, because everything was sort of hand stencils. Oh, yeah. And so I was actually afraid of computers. And then when I took this web design course, I was like, This is the future. There’s so much potential. And I’m so glad I stuck with it. Because I’ve essentially been in the web e commerce industry since the early 2000s, even before we knew what UI was what your axes. And I think I’ve stayed in it for so many years, because I really, really enjoyed getting into the mindset, and embracing the empathy of others. And it’s sort of like, how can I do this better? How can I help them? How can I make this experience this funnel progression friction free. And I think that’s really how I stayed in it for over two years now.

Katrina Collier 3:10
Because it’s always evolving. I can make a confession to you, you’re gonna get this because we’re similar generation. When I went to university briefly before I probably bombed out wasn’t for me. Somebody said to me, this is in 1989. I’m doing a computer science degree. And I literally went, why. Now I look back at the curious. Yeah. Surely, I mean, it sounds crazy to people listening unless they’re of an older generation. They’ll be like, What are you talking about? There’s computers everywhere, but it wasn’t. So actually, you’re absolutely right. You’ve got in at that time was it was still really new.

Ch’ien Chan 3:44
Yeah, it was sort of pre sort of popular and all that stuff.

Katrina Collier 3:50
Yeah. I mean, I still love the UFC. I’m sure you’ve seen the meme where there’s like a path that the human wants someone to walk and then all the humans have just walked and cut across the grass. Yeah, there’s one I walk past every morning. And every time I think exactly the whole UI UX design and how we humans do what we want. I know.

Ch’ien Chan 4:09
I think you live it because literally, this past Friday, I hosted a happy hour for my team. Yeah. And my place is quite hard to find. And I literally had these photos step by step of like, go here, go here. And then I posted it in WhatsApp channel and one of my product designer was like, gosh, you’re so effing UX. Yeah. You just kind of live and breathe. Yeah.

Katrina Collier 4:34
Did you do it in reverse? They

Ch’ien Chan 4:35
said they could get out. No, no, no, I should think about that.

Katrina Collier 4:39
Yeah, and you can have it a bit wobbly when they’ve had a vino. Okay. But on that, obviously, the directions are Copenhagen. Yeah. So what’s that been like very different to the world, Hong Kong us.

Ch’ien Chan 4:52
I have had the opportunity to work in Boston in New York and London, Berlin and Francisco, those were all big tech hubs, you know, and we’ll get to this, I’m sure in this podcast later, but it, you know, because they were such tech hubs, talent was everywhere. Yeah. And when I had this opportunity from the vino to come to Copenhagen. I don’t want to get into personal stories. But no, no, of course, there is a reason of coming to the EU to fulfill some sort of light at the end of the tunnel. But I thought it would just be a great opportunity. And Copenhagen is so progressive, politically. And also personally, and I, you know, I kind of said, why not. And being a single guy, you know, I didn’t have any strings and anchors. So I said, let’s do it. And coming during a pandemic was really interesting, because, you know, I become leaving America, there was so many political issues of you know, how to have safety precautions, everything was politically charged, everything was shut down. And when I got here in July of last year, I came off to the Copenhagen lockdown, which ended I think, in May. So gyms, restaurants, bars, were all pretty much open, just that limited capacity. So yeah, it was like being free coming to Copenhagen from America. And we didn’t actually experience lockdown until December. And so that was sort of like when I got back to what I had just left in San Francisco, right.

Katrina Collier 6:35
And for the extremely long nights that

Ch’ien Chan 6:40
they are cold and long and dark. But now I feel so fortunate to have spent July till December free and being out and about and it also,

Katrina Collier 6:50
Europe had exceptional weather didn’t

Ch’ien Chan 6:53
Yes, this is

Katrina Collier 6:54
not having planes up there really helped.

Ch’ien Chan 6:56
Everyone kept saying, Chen, this isn’t real. But no, it was just really cool. And it also helps that I have an extroverted personality. So I got to meet people and make some really good circles before we had a December lockdown. So you know, some gym friends, some harbor hopping friends, some social friends. So it’s, I was very, very fortunate. I have some friends that you know, I’m moving in America. And one of my friends are ex colleague, she’s moving to Boise, which is in the middle of nowhere. And I’m just like, test Good luck, then just make sure you have your eyes and ears and everything open. You just need to make those connections and those networks even locked down.

Katrina Collier 7:40
You do you have to be bold, at anytime changing countries, that’s just it’s off. So you were referred, of course, the fabulous Heidi, who I absolutely adore. And one of the reasons is you are the only hiring leader I know who has slipped through I believe you said 387. I just repeat that for people 387. CVS resumes if you’re in the US. I’m sorry, what? Like you’re a hiring manager. What were you doing going to 380? And really what possessed you? And are you still same?

Ch’ien Chan 8:17
Luckily, I work for a wine company who use cases of wine during lockdown to help with this work from home situation. So yeah, yeah. It almost became like, Oh, you know, maybe a glass of wine. And then all of a sudden it was like, wait, the whole bundle is gone. What’s going on? But no, I mean, in all seriousness,

Katrina Collier 8:37
how are you still slim More to the point, Mike?

Ch’ien Chan 8:42
Swimming and working, I still try to be really, really active. I think that keeps your sanity. To be honest, mental health and physical health is also super, super important. But, you know, I think the vino is still in startup mode, right? And so all of our teams are extremely lean, or people in culture team has to help every department with their hire. And so I took it upon myself to lead my own initiative. Because I was looking for candidates with very specific strengths in us. And many designers today say they are versed in both UI and UX organically. But I’m I was and still am ready to hire specialists. And not necessarily Jack’s nor Jacqueline’s of all trades. Yeah, no. And I’m also a very anal retentive Virgo, who suffers from extreme FOMO and I didn’t want to miss out on potentially the candidate. He was

Katrina Collier 9:40
the CV number 396.

Ch’ien Chan 9:43
And then just for your for your listeners. Yeah, um, you know, it’s really sad because out of all of the applicants, I’ve only made one hire. Yeah, and

Katrina Collier 9:54
if I can be cheeky before you go on with that, sorry, that was really rude. I don’t interrupt. I’m just a shocker. usual listeners that I’ve got here she goes, see, most of us would think UX UI, it’s all the same recruiters because you know, we’re a bit. Yeah. What’s the distinct difference, then? I mean, I know what they stand for. But yeah, yeah,

Ch’ien Chan 10:13
well, so for example, um, a lot of sort of traditional product designers. Again, product design is a fairly new term in the last 10 years. And so I think a lot of people are still trying to put, you know, a finger on it. And because I’ve been in the industry for so long, my personal sort of gut reaction is that, you know, you why tends to be more on the visual side. And they’ve sort of taken in all of the pre synthesized research and usability tests and interviews that researchers and UX readers have done, and they sort of, then synthesize all of that information to make a really beautiful mind. Um, you know, they are the ones that are thinking about a component library material design and design systems. And the UX part is really working with that research, sort of pre designing. And, you know, they’re almost sort of saying, Let’s get the skeleton ready, let’s get the ligaments ready. And it’s, and then the UI is sort of putting the flesh on that.

Katrina Collier 11:22
Yeah, you know, I

Ch’ien Chan 11:22
think I like to use that analogy, quite

Katrina Collier 11:24
a lot actually makes really good sense. I’m sure that will help. So I just had to ask you kind of economically, but you were about to say that you only hired

Ch’ien Chan 11:32
one. Yeah. And if you think about it, right, that’s a lot of time. Yeah. And, you know, I have been hired advantage to do several things like to scale the company, to figure out a strategy to improve processes. Figure out how we could work better internally with our cross functional partners. And when you are in the minutiae of hiring and looking at resumes, you know, it really takes away the time that you should be thinking about strategizing.

Katrina Collier 12:05
Yeah. And it probably gave you some empathy for the recruiter out there. However, you did find a great solution, didn’t you? You’ve had your boundaries pushed, which is the, I really can’t wait to talk about

Ch’ien Chan 12:21
come on and share what happened during the status quo. And so, you know, the vino, we, in case your listeners haven’t heard, but we were really, really fortunate. I don’t want to say lucky because it was due to a lot of hard work. But we were very fortunate to close our round for a funding receiving an additional 155 US million dollars. And the investors essentially, so we want to see product and marketing really grow here. And we knew from a company strategy, that it was essential that our recruiting our people and culture team also scaled, there’s no way we can hire another 167 open roles on our own, and of those about 50 within the production engineering sector. So you know, we got the, you know, we were graced with Heidi, and Heidi and I hit it off immediately. And she’s gonna hit it off. Yes, absolutely. I favorite humans. And I think that’s one of those, you know, prerequisites. And we’ll talk about this also, when I talk about this company that I worked with, but I think it’s really interesting that some professions, you should have certain personalities. Yeah. Because you have to work with so many different people, you need to be really be a people person. Yeah. And so anyways, I got it. We’ll definitely get into that in a bit. But I got to meet Heidi, we hit it off. And because I’m new to Copenhagen, I had to rely on her network. Yeah. And, you know, because we built a quick rapport. She kind of said, Chen, I have worked with this amazing guy, Nicholas, hurdle. And Nicholas, I’m sorry, if I butchered your last name.

Katrina Collier 14:12
He’s Australian.

Ch’ien Chan 14:16
But I’m plugging him right. So you should be happy. He’s the CEO of this company called inner flow. And, you know, you know, I knew that I had to work with external recruiters because it’s gonna be impossible to hire 50 people, like I have about 14 hires that I’m trying to complete by July. It is March now. So I have a I have a lot of roles to fill in the immediate future. Yeah. And, you know, we like it’s impossible for Heidi also to do this recruiting herself. So it’s crucial that she has to rely on some external recruiting partners. Yeah. And so with Nicolas at inner flow, you know, their mission is to unleash the full potential of individuals and organizations. By using anonymized case solving, so a lot of you are like, me, yeah. And I pose this challenge to my team on a daily basis, Katrina, which is to challenge the status quo. I hate it when people say, Hey, why are you doing this? They say, Oh, that’s just how it’s been done. Let’s figure out a better way, let’s figure out a smarter way, let’s figure out a more efficient way. And if I pose this challenge to my team, it would be extremely hypocritical, if I live by that philosophy myself. And so when interflow said, this is how we do it, which essentially means, you know, they move away from the traditional screening of resumes, and instead, have applicants complete a task, and then a behavioral analysis to see if they will be compatible to the work culture at vivino. And so this eliminates any unconscious bias, the hiring manager might demonstrate without knowing.

Katrina Collier 15:56
Yeah. And you also had to do it as well, didn’t I? Yeah, so just having to do it.

Ch’ien Chan 16:02
This behavioral analysis is very unusual. It’s about answering about 440. Questions. Yeah, between 20 and 40 minutes.

Katrina Collier 16:10
Did you do that with or without wine?

Ch’ien Chan 16:15
I did it without and then when I hit and I said, I should have done it with.

Katrina Collier 16:23
So but if you could do a comparison, Yeah,

Ch’ien Chan 16:26
I think so. I think no one I think with wine, it might actually have been better. Because it’s like, What comes to your mind fast? Yeah. And it’s trying to put you in this time constraint, because they don’t want you to overthink anything. They want you to just sort of like, you know, snap away. And

Katrina Collier 16:43
is that where you got that inner retentive Virgo from? Or did you know that? No,

Ch’ien Chan 16:47
thank you that before I knew that I am pushing. I mean, can I say this? Yeah, I’m gonna be 45 this year. So I’m quite familiar with what, you know, my own personality traits. And I’ve had to deal with that with many therapy and career coaching sessions. And so I’m quite introspective. Yes.

Katrina Collier 17:09
Did anything surprising come up in your test, then? Sadly, not on the questions I told you. I was gonna go off on

Ch’ien Chan 17:14
Yeah, that’s fine. Okay. So here’s the deal. The vino is very much into diversity, equity and inclusion and an inner flow is

Katrina Collier 17:25
a really important part, isn’t it?

Ch’ien Chan 17:26
Yeah. And, you know, this process checks whether a candidate complete a task. Yeah, whether this candidate fits the culture, regardless of their race, gender, educational background and experience level isn’t until the candidate has completed those first two rounds, that I can then see their CV or resume. And, you know, I recently read Katrina. And it was like an on a social post somewhere. And I hope I don’t mess it up. But it was it said something like, diversity is a fact, equity is a choice. And inclusion is an action. Yeah. And I think this process from inner flow really helps achieve this philosophy without unconscious and subconscious bias. Yeah, and, you know, this person has really challenged my status quo, because I’m so used to being controlling and having the information upfront, and I base my decisions specifically on a candidates experience. And you know, being a gay Asian male, not from this white country, it already opens my eyes to equity and inclusion. But from this exercise, I realized that I could have potentially eliminated some non native speaking candidates, candidates that didn’t have English majors, because I was looking for a copywriter. Yeah. And, you know, I might have nixed some of these finalists, because they didn’t fulfill that prerequisite that I’ve had in my mind. Yeah. You know, and because of this, because I was so impressed with this process with interflow. I really, really look forward to working with them again, for more roles that I have open,

Katrina Collier 19:10
because Didn’t you say it was something like you receive five profiles, and you interviewed three. So So what happened? The results, the results were amazing. We

Ch’ien Chan 19:18
so nfo had a record breaking number of applicants that completed the task, the assignment, they had 167 applicants. And so I sort of gave them guidelines on what successful assignments would be. Yeah. And so I worked with someone from interflow. And so they helped me bring those 167 to 23. Yeah, so I reviewed those 23 sort of top tier from the prerequisites that I provided them. Yeah. And from that top 23 I narrowed it down to six finalists? Yeah. And of those. So you know, when we looked at those 23, when I got it was, so I got it down to about 11. To be honest, I got it down to 11. We made 11 applicants complete the behavioral analysis. Gotcha. And then it wasn’t until I saw the behavioral analysis. And I could look at what did I grade them from the assignment? And what did they get from the behavioral analysis that I was then able to say, from those two things? I think these are my tops, but I’m not gonna decide until I get a chance to talk to them, and also review their resume and CV slash CD

Katrina Collier 20:42
from going through 387. Let me just check that I write down. Yeah, yeah, that’s just a ridiculous number. That would have I didn’t want to know how long that took, how long did the process take to go through those 2311. And that must have been like an hour.

Ch’ien Chan 20:58
So there was sort of a it took, like, maybe two weeks just to get the process going. And then by the time we posted the job, and it was really sort of like, hey, Chen, how long do you want this job to even be posted? You know? But yeah, so from the time I remember, they gave me the top 23 on a Friday night. Yeah. And Monday morning, we had a meeting together to figure out of those top 23, who should do the behavioral analysis. And then by Thursday, we already have the results, and I can pick my top six.

Katrina Collier 21:37
So that’s actually quite fast. I mean, because you had to do a personality thing. And you know, like, you’re really working out what you want. But going forward, it’s gonna be so much easier. Yeah, it’s still way quicker than 387. CVS to pass.

Ch’ien Chan 21:51
Yeah. And if you and like when I was doing those 387, it had to be outside of nine to five. Yes, I had my I had to do the day thing. And going through those resumes had to be when we weren’t having meetings, and I could have a glass of wine, ease the pain. But that was kind of birth as sort of chain. How many do you want to go through today? So each day, I would try and get through 10? To 20? Yeah. which consisted of quick jump to their portfolio, quick, you know, nothing. That’s normally the first thing I do is like, check out their case studies, because I really like to see how they think. And that takes time.

Katrina Collier 22:32
Yeah. And now you’ve got a whole chunk of time back. Yes. Only because you allowed someone to push your status quo. Like, yes.

Ch’ien Chan 22:42
I think that’s where you have to be. You know, Nicholas was really great, because he kept asking me, hey, Chad, are you cool with this chain? How are you comfortable? And he was always doing a temperature check. And I said, Hey, Nicholas, stop babysitting Mays. You know? I, if I want to try this and really give it an honest go, I need to trust this process. And you’re committed to the process, you can’t sort of say, let’s try it out, and then change halfway, because you’re not really going to see the benefits, right? It’s almost like saying, I’m going to try, Okay, you know what, let’s try any restaurant you want. And then you take me to this really unusual restaurant. And when I get there, I’m going to say interview recommending the specialty is I’m going to say, Okay, now that we are this sort of unusual restaurant, I’m going to stick to my chicken and fish. Yeah, you know, it’s like, hey, go for the full experience like you, you’ve already entered the restaurant. So why can’t you just sort of like, try the dishes that are known from that restaurant? And I think this is this is kind of like with recruiting, if you’re going to try a new person, if you’re gonna try a new process, you’ve got to be committed.

Katrina Collier 23:57
Yeah. And I assume that is your tip for hiring managers as well. Like to actually trust something new.

Ch’ien Chan 24:06
Yeah. So, um, I know that you’re gonna ask, you know, tips for recruiters and tips to hiring managers,

Katrina Collier 24:15
whichever way you wish.

Ch’ien Chan 24:17
Okay, so

Katrina Collier 24:18
I don’t have that I know returning Berg, I think

Ch’ien Chan 24:24
my, since we’re already talking about tip for hiring managers, I really think that you’ve got to be committed, you’ve got to have an open mind. But you know, what you gain from partnering with, you know, really competent recruiters is that you gain all that time you would have lost your gain back that time that you can focus on strategy, you gain back that time that you can, you know, really spend quality time with your team, your immediate team. You’ve got to trust You’ve got to be a little bit vulnerable to try a new method. And, you know, for all those hiring managers, I will challenge you to see how you can challenge your own status quo. And how can you give up some of that control to let someone else shine in their expertise? Yeah, you know, I’ve, and no disrespect, like when I say I’ve met PMS, I’m not talking just at vivino. But I, you know, you know, you know, I’ve worked at Puma at TripAdvisor on jetsetter, wayfair Pottery Barn, you know, I’ve met a lot of project managers, you know, that can say they can do everything that they are the jack or Jacqueline of all trades, that’s product related. They can research, they can do data analytics, they can do some UX, they can do some wire framing, but at vivino. Today, we are fortunate enough to have the monetary resources to scale and hire specialists. Yeah. And so to hiring managers, that’s what I would say, that’s exactly what you should do. And so you should hire recruiting specialists, these people kind of know the system, and they have their own magic. And you sort of got to trust that they might even do it better than you.

Katrina Collier 26:21
And me, just because you can do it doesn’t mean you should

Ch’ien Chan 26:25
do it. Exactly.

Katrina Collier 26:27
It’s why I have a virtual assistant. Yeah, I could do the really boring stuff. But like she loves it. I don’t say handed over. It’s like, it’s just logical, right?

Ch’ien Chan 26:36
I have an amazing designer who does really cool illustrations. And I’m like, I know you love it, and you do it really well. But I would rather you be focusing on UI like, yeah, you know, let’s, let’s, let’s spend your time and the company’s money better.

Katrina Collier 26:58
Yeah. And you need to change what he’s doing for jell

Ch’ien Chan 27:04
o Yeah. No. No. Know, but this is what I mean. Right. Like, especially while you’re scaling, you need to really use your team members to their talent. Yeah. You know, we have a graphic design team based out of San Francisco, and it’s like, let them do those illustrations and all that stuff. But then, I’m gonna help you Katrina,

Katrina Collier 27:33
he gonna shift to the other side of the world.

Ch’ien Chan 27:39
All the Hades in you in the world that have been amazing. You know, if you were to ask me, What is one of the tips that recruiters, you know, should do? And I think the first thing that I may have done in a very nice way? Yeah. was to be like, so what’s your track record? You know, what have you done? You know, how have you shared that success? Yeah. And I think that’s how Heidi and I hit it off, because we knew that we were just sort of like upfront No, no frills. I almost swore here. But, you know, it’s like,

Katrina Collier 28:13
I think Apple podcast gets annoyed. But

Ch’ien Chan 28:18
I think you need to show what a badass you are, you do. And you need to show how you’re confident and how you’re going to make hiring managers feel confident working with you. Yeah, because at the end of the day, we need results. And, you know, Nicholas and I, we, you know, we got along immediately as well, like Heidi Nicholas and I, we hit it off immediately when we were doing our video meetings. And he’s like, So when are we? When are you going to when are we going to have a drink at the vino wine bar. And as you can tell Katrina, as we’ve chatted before, but you know, I I love my my wine, and my my vodka and my whiskey and all the beverages. And I love hosting. I love hosting and entertaining. But I was like, Nicolas, we’re not drinking until I have a higher like, you’re a great guy. But I still need results. And well, yeah, we’re not gonna toast and celebrate until I have a higher and that’s actually an

Katrina Collier 29:18
extra piece of advice as well. Don’t be overly familiar because it’s really easy with you because you’re an extrovert so you’re really relaxed. So it’d be for a lot of recruiters would step over. But I don’t see enough recruiters going. I’ve placed this many people I’ve done this kind of in their niche, hopefully specializing and really showing what they’ve done. And I think a lot of that comes into that attitude of like really partnering set up partner show, as you just said, it instills confidence in you that they’re going to deliver the results. I mean, who doesn’t want to work with a badass,

Ch’ien Chan 29:51
right? And and I’m not saying everyone needs to be extroverted, like,

Katrina Collier 29:56
Oh, no, no, I just met the line. Yeah,

Ch’ien Chan 29:58
I don’t want to make sure I know, you’re gonna have very listeners, and I’ve met amazing quiet leaders, you know. But at the end of the day, it’s really results. And I don’t want

Katrina Collier 30:11
to sound

Ch’ien Chan 30:12
too cutthroat, but because I’ve, you know, at one of my previous companies at wayfair, we started with a team of five. And by the time I left, five years later, we had a team of 60. And those were UI UX researchers and copywriters. And you know, sometimes when you’re interviewing, and especially with, like, some of the less seasoned interviewers, they’ll, you know, they’ll come out of the interview saying, Oh, that was that was a really nice candidate, right? Don’t you think? And I’m like, but would they challenge you? Would they bring something to the team? Like, would they actually excel in the role? And these are, and sometimes people are always so caught up. Like I said to you, I think one of the best traits a recruiter can have his personality and personable, but at the same time, it’s not just clouds in the sky. Does everyone get along? It’s what are you going to deliver? Are you going to give me quality candidates? I don’t care that you’re going to give me 20 potentials. I want to know that there are going to be like three stars. Yeah, you know, three

Katrina Collier 31:18
stars. That’s where it doesn’t really matter with the introvert extrovert? Because actually, it’s about one to one. Yeah. And that that communication, because I’m actually a really loud introvert, like a socialized introvert. But like I, you’d go flip around the room, and I just stand still talking to one person. That’s always the way I explained it differently. But it’s like creating that relationship with that one person. So that bit your hiring leader or the candidate so that you’re bringing in the right people? Yeah, and then prepping them for interview and all that sort of stuff. So it’s it, is it yeah, that side is not so important. I agree.

Ch’ien Chan 31:49
And I actually continue to bring up a great point about different personality types, because I think, you know, also really good recruiters will also have a sense of what personality type different voles need. Yeah. And so, um, you know, you’re gonna have very different leaders, but then you might have very specific practitioners. Yeah. And I think it’s really helpful when recruiting sort of read that. And I think that’s part of what I got from interflow is behavioral analysis, you know, and, you know, also what’s interesting, in a flow, they’ve basically said, here’s the copywriter role, he’s a UX role, he’s a UI role, here’s a manager role. And they’ve basically placed certain behaviors for all of those that they think good quality of those would deliver. And a lot of, I think there’ll be a lot of listeners thing, I think that’s actually basing a lot of bias on what a role should have. But again, I would challenge them trust the process, but you’ve got to trust that they’ve done all this research and, you know, data sorting. And of course, there’s always going to be an exception to the rule. But

Katrina Collier 33:05
that’s where the interview process, because like you said, you’re gonna still see the CV is you’re still gonna talk to them. And that’s when the other side comes in. So, yeah, wow. You’ve definitely challenged the status quo. And if people want to talk to you and hear more, where’s the best place to stroke you? Is that just LinkedIn or

Ch’ien Chan 33:22
Yeah, LinkedIn, it’s pretty much available. And it’s not hard to find me.

Katrina Collier 33:31
I’ll hyperlink it. Anyway. But yeah,

Ch’ien Chan 33:34
but yeah, I definitely open on LinkedIn open to open messages. And just a quick plug, we are still hiring. Like I said, we are on an aggressive scaling mode trajectory, with this investor money that we made that’s looking to specifically focus on product and marketing and also recruiting. And so yeah, I’d definitely be interested in chatting with you. If you are in the UI, UX research and copywriting fields.

Katrina Collier 34:01
Definitely, I will make sure that goes in the notes as well. And that’ll hyperlink. Thank you again for all of that. So appreciated.

Ch’ien Chan 34:12
Absolutely Katrina. Happy, Happy New Year. I know where all the best and access to your recruiting initiatives.

Katrina Collier 34:24
Thank you for listening to The Hiring Partner Perspective (Unedited) podcast, proudly supported by the people at WORQDRIVE. Hopefully, you really enjoyed what you heard and have left feeling inspired. And if so, I would love your help to create real change. Please pass this podcast on to your Hiring Leaders and other Recruiters and HR. Even share it on your social channels, if you feel so inclined. But the more reach we can get, the more change we can create. So please remember to subscribe, of course, on your favourite podcast platform. And do come and say hello @HiringPartnerPerspective on Instagram where I share behind the scenes of what’s going on. Until next time. Thank you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai