Sue Ingram: Handling Dramatic Hiring Managers

 

Full Transcript: Sue Ingram – Handling Dramatic Hiring Managers

Katrina Collier (00:50):

Sue Ingram, welcome to The Hiring Partner Perspective podcast, proudly supported by the gorgeous people at WORQDRIVE. I am so excited to talk to you. Obviously you’re my dear friend of old, but you’re also a subject, or an expert in this subject, I should say. Sue, tell us what you do. Obviously I know, but share.

Sue Ingram (01:09):

Well, I’m a coach, an executive coach, but more than that, I train managers in how to manage other people. And I train managers in how to get extraordinary work out of perfectly ordinary people, and how to have feedback conversations with people when you’re telling them something that is disappointing to hear, that they don’t want to hear, something like that. So tough conversations.

Katrina Collier (01:36):

You’re very good at those tough conversations, because don’t you have a book called Fire Well?

Sue Ingram (01:40):

I do indeed. I have a book called Fire Well: How to Fire Staff So They Say Thank You. Though, actually, I think I might retitle it How to Have Conversations with Staff Where You Get Resignations When That’s the Right Answer. Because if you have a conversation in the right way, nine times out 10, you get a resignation. Sometimes people will just sit there passively, even when they know they should resign, and you need to fire them, but that’s more the rarity, and it’s all about how you have a tough conversation and still keep good relationships with people. I mean, what you really aim for is to fire someone and have them still recommend your firm as someone to go and work for because of the way in which they were treated, with respect, with an opportunity to improve, with some honesty, and all that kind of thing that makes a good feeling. If you achieve that, then that is the ultimate goal, is it not.

Katrina Collier (02:41):

Absolutely. Well, particularly in this transparent world we now live in where everyone can go write a shitty review if you’ve left a bad taste in their mouth.

Sue Ingram (02:48):

Absolutely. You want someone sitting in the pub saying they fired me, but actually I’d go and work for them again. [crosstalk 00:02:54].

Katrina Collier (02:53):

And I’m grateful because I’ve ended up here and all that sort of stuff.

Sue Ingram (02:56):

Or it was the right thing. I didn’t realize it at the time, but actually, looking back now, it was definitely the right thing. I needed to go.

Katrina Collier (03:05):

Don’t you reframe all of these conversations, you call them generous conversations?

Sue Ingram (03:08):

I do. I call them generous conversations, because when you go in to say to someone, “I want you to be happy and successful in your job role.” If it’s in the job role you’ve got now, whoopee, and sometimes you can reignite people to their current job role. It might be another job role in the company, which is great. But if you can’t give them that happiness, fulfillment, and success because there’s nothing that suits them, then they need to leave, and then that’s the generous conversation. Because it’s going to cost me… Well, no, it’s not going to cost you, because to have someone sitting in a job role that they’re not suited for, that they have no talent for, that they hate is painful. Not just for them, but for the team around them and for you as their manager, because it will be like walking through treacle to have a conversation with them. It’ll just be painful.

Sue Ingram (04:01):

So it’s a generous… But you go in… Somehow in our society, we’ve got this idea that negative feedback, conversations, difficult conversations, all these kind of conversations are horrible and that they leave people in tears and all that kind of thing, which is a load of rubbish. You go in thinking, “How can I help this person succeed?” And if it’s with me, that’s great. If it’s not with me, then that’s also great. Because when they leave, they leave the post vacant for someone who’s going to love it, who’s going to thrive, and who’s going to give me great work. That’s a generous conversation.

Katrina Collier (04:41):

I love that. It’s that mindset, isn’t it? Going in, actually I’m doing this with a greater good, I’m coming at it from heart. This isn’t…

Sue Ingram (04:51):

Yes. And when you go in with generosity and curiosity to speak to the person saying, “Hey, I want you to be happy and successful. What’s going on here? How can we achieve that aim?” If you go in with the generosity of heart and the curiosity, then the tone of voice is right, then the words are right, then the conversation flows, then they go away and think about it a bit, and they come back and they say, “Actually, I think you were right now. No, I’m not really enjoying this job.” And you go, “No, I didn’t think you were. So a case of where do we go now?” And the whole thing flows so much more easily

Katrina Collier (05:27):

Comes a little less scary, doesn’t it?

Sue Ingram (05:32):

Yes. And you as a manager, as a human being, as someone who wants to see people succeeding, and let’s face it, we all want to succeed, and we want to see people succeeding, it’s much easier to have that conversation then, when you go in on the basis of how can I help you succeed, and if it’s not in this role, then it needs to be somewhere else.

Katrina Collier (05:49):

It’s quite interesting. You’re saying all of this and all I think of is your brilliant DisruptHR talk, where you were talking about promote your managers, or promote people to management and they die. But it was so few companies seemed to invest in management training and leadership training.

Sue Ingram (06:06):

Yes, because they invest in leadership training and there’s nothing wrong with that, the top boys, they get their stuff because it is actually… It’s easy to shoot our leaders down, but it’s actually quite scary being a leader up there, being responsible for all kinds of stuff, and having to think in a new way and having loads of demands placed on you. But too often we promote people into management without any support, and particularly if they’re managing people who used to be their friends, colleagues. And that can be one of the hardest management jobs within an organization. So you get people who want to succeed as a manager, and then they suddenly are responsible for people who are behaving oddly, who are playing games with them. I remember when I first got to management, one of my ex colleagues, friends suddenly bought me buns.

Katrina Collier (07:08):

I’m assuming you mean bread buns, not the other buns that you’d really.

Sue Ingram (07:14):

Well, they knew how to get to my heart, which was through confectionary. So she bought me buns. And she’d never bought me buns before. It was like an apple for the teacher. So she bought me buns. So I said thank you. What do you say? And then I’m left standing there going, “Why has she done this? And what is she wanting from me? Am I now obligated to her because she’s bought me buns?” ,And the answer is no, you’re not obligated to someone. You just say, “Thank you so much.” And then you share the buns with loads of other people. And you are not obligated. That is the game. That’s a game, buying favor, literally, and you do not fall for that trick, but some people-

Katrina Collier (08:01):

So how did you learn that at the time? I mean, did you have someone to turn to and ask and say, “What’s going on?” Or did you just do it on a wing and a prayer?

Sue Ingram (08:12):

That’s such a good question.

Katrina Collier (08:14):

Because you and I have been around a bit, we’ve learned a bit over the years. I will never lead people. That’s what I’ve learned.

Sue Ingram (08:23):

I mean, yeah, because I’ve been a great observer of people. I naturally can observe people. It’s one of my gifts. I can walk into a floor full of people, and I’ve never seen them before, and I’ll point out the three difficult people for you. That one, and that one, and that one. And they’ll go, “How do you know that?” And I go, “Their body language, like Clue. The way that they’ve got their head down, they’re not talking to anyone else. The sullen look on their face.” It’s kind of easy to pick it out. I’ve become aware over the years that I can see these things more easily than other people can.

Sue Ingram (09:00):

Then you’ve got other talents which I haven’t got, but my talent is to be able to see this. So I’ve always had this massive curiosity about people, all of my life, and I’ve just read books and observed, and I had the good fortune to work for a good manager in my first HR job who never did anything the normal way. He did it the way that would work, which was sometimes contrary to the normal way. So I had the good fortune to work for him who thought things through, and that really helped as well. And then I just went on my journey. I just went on my journey and made 110 different mistakes.

Katrina Collier (09:40):

And learned from them.

Sue Ingram (09:43):

[crosstalk 00:09:43] a job. All kinds of stuff, you know?

Katrina Collier (09:48):

I know one of the things that you’ve learned over the years that I totally want to pick your brain about. So one of my gorgeous recruiter clients, he has a hiring leader who forever panics. It’s like… Oops, I shouldn’t say gender. This person cries wolf.

Sue Ingram (10:02):

Okay. Drama, drama, drama, drama, drama.

Katrina Collier (10:05):

So it’s like, drama, job, now, urgent, and it never is. And actually a completely different client said to me, you should be really wary of the loud ones, because it’s the quiet ones that have the urgent roles. I’m actually really worried when they’re quiet. It’s almost the opposite of what you’re talking about. Here you are, you have the hiring manager who thinks that they’re managing the recruiter, which they’re not. The recruiter’s actually managing the recruitment process. They’re not necessarily on a level. Usually the recruiter feels like they’re a service to that person. They’re not sitting up and partnering, which I rant on about, anyone who’s heard this podcast knows. So there can be a power problem, but also how do you push back with this person that’s panicking, because you know, really, ultimately the role’s actually not urgent.

Sue Ingram (10:53):

Oh, this is a difficult one because…

Katrina Collier (10:54):

Of course. Why would I bring an easy question to this difficult conversation?

Sue Ingram (11:01):

You don’t want ignore the cry wolf, because the one case when they ignore the cry wolf will be the one. It’ll be the real urgent one. The CEO is demanding and wanting it next week and you’re going, “Oh my God.” He’s panicked, or she’s panicked. Do not allow that panic to infect you. People who are panicked or angry, they have a tendency to ask people to join them in the anger or panic because it justifies them being angry and panicked. And when you all get angry and panicked, nothing happens.

Sue Ingram (11:41):

The answer is quite odd, really. It starts with yourself. You need to stand on absolute firm ground. You need to know your worth. Not just vaguely in your head. Know your worth. And there’s a couple of exercises you can do for that. One is to list everything you’ve achieved against the odds, all the brilliant stuff you’ve done, all the rabbits you’ve pulled out of hats, all the steady recruitment work you’ve achieved, where… You list that. List it, list it, list it. It should fill pages. Go back through your diaries and absolutely go, “Oh yeah, I remember that. Oh, do you…” And list it all down.

Katrina Collier (12:26):

That’s the evidence to the contrary, isn’t it?

Sue Ingram (12:30):

It’s the evidence to the contrary. [crosstalk 00:12:32].

Katrina Collier (12:32):

Inner voice just talks about panicking.

Sue Ingram (12:33):

They, in their panic, will try to get you into panic. The easiest way to get you into panic is to get you to doubt your value and worth. You’re no good as a recruiter unless you can give me this. That will be the line they will do. So list that, and it’s good idea to do that, and it’s a good idea to always have… My niece, she’s been trained by me, and she’s [crosstalk 00:13:04]-

Katrina Collier (13:04):

For those listening to the audio, Sue just did like… What’s it called with the arms?

Sue Ingram (13:10):

Power. Power stance.

Katrina Collier (13:10):

Power stance with her arms.

Sue Ingram (13:13):

And she’s very happy in her job. Been there for five years or something like that. Very happy. I got her the job, actually. Well I didn’t get her the job… Anyway, anyway. I helped her get the job.

Katrina Collier (13:24):

Oh she so did.

Sue Ingram (13:24):

Anyway. So straight from the off I said, “Fran, every month, quick thing, have a file on your thing and write down all your achievements that month, because you won’t remember them next month. And when it comes to writing a CV, you have got this huge list,” and she still does it to this day. It’s just a scrappy document, all the accomplishments. But there’s something in there about knowing your worth, standing your ground. Then there’s something about building relationships, trusting good relationships with professional relationships with other hiring managers. Don’t let this panicked person wash the sand from under your feet. Does that make sense?

Sue Ingram (14:15):

And then you look at them and keep some distance away from the drama. The drama is theirs, not yours. It’s absolutely their drama. I often think of it as a firework display. Because I don’t want to get… I enjoy firework displays, but I don’t get very close to a fireworks display. Wouldn’t be that crazy. And the same applies to a panicked guy like this or lady like this, is that you can almost be amused by it when you have a distance to it going, “Oh my God, they’re going off again.” Isn’t this interesting? And know that it’s their problem, not yours.

Katrina Collier (15:01):

A couple of ways I’ve had to deal with that or given the tool to deal with that, that adds beautifully to what you’ve just said is to do the, it’s not of me or for me, or picture while they’re exploding that they’re in a beautiful glass bell jar. So while their explosion isn’t coming, it’s not getting through and reaching you.

Sue Ingram (15:18):

[crosstalk 00:15:18] impacting me. I’m the professional here. I have done all this excellent work. All these other hiring managers think I’m brilliant because I deliver and I’m trustworthy and all that kind of thing. This guy, he or she is ill. They have huge-

Katrina Collier (15:38):

Probably insecurity maybe.

Sue Ingram (15:40):

Yeah, they do. And also that people behave in this way because it has in the past worked.

Katrina Collier (15:48):

I’ll stamp my foot the loudest and therefore I’ll get what I want.

Sue Ingram (15:52):

Now if you go professional and calm and strong on them, they are likely in response to that to behave even more badly, because-

Katrina Collier (16:07):

They’re trying to fluster you.

Sue Ingram (16:09):

In TA, in transactional analysis it’s called scripts. They come in with a script where they shout loudly. You go, “Yes sir. Yes sir. Yes sir.” Pull your [inaudible 00:16:20], bow down, go… And get panicked equally. And you’re rushing off and abandon every other task, except for the, obviously, [crosstalk 00:16:28].

Katrina Collier (16:27):

It really is a shame this is audio only, because Sue’s pulling at her hair, shaking her hands. It’s just brilliant.

Sue Ingram (16:35):

But that’s the script.

Katrina Collier (16:37):

Yeah, absolutely.

Sue Ingram (16:38):

And when they come in and behave in that way and expect that result and they don’t get it, you just stand there, very calm… You go neutral, go neutral. Do not add to the drama by looking cross or looking annoyed. Go neutral. Neutral in your face, just neutral. And you can practice that.

Katrina Collier (17:00):

I think I’d have the trouble of my face would probably show as amused by their display. So I’d be in trouble. Neutral is difficult [crosstalk 00:17:07].

Sue Ingram (17:07):

I know, you would actually, because you would find very funny.

Katrina Collier (17:12):

I would find it funny, but I wouldn’t have, I think. Before I’d done so much work to heal my trauma, I wouldn’t have. I would’ve got really upset, and I know that this particular recruiter does get upset by and gets flustered by it. So this is just amazing advice.

Sue Ingram (17:25):

Don’t do that. It’s a case of know your worth, stand on your ground, stand on the fact that people are valuing you genuinely.

Katrina Collier (17:35):

I think that would be great, wouldn’t it, if every recruiter, every Friday, just before they left the office just spent 10 minutes writing down everything they’d achieved that week.

Sue Ingram (17:42):

You would be stunned. Because our human brain, they’ve done a lot of research, and they don’t know why, but it appears that the human brain concentrates on what’s wrong rather than what’s right.

Katrina Collier (17:57):

Flight and fright and what’s it called? That one.

Sue Ingram (18:00):

Yeah. And particularly when pressures on, we go to what’s wrong. So we’ll go home on a Friday night thinking of everything we haven’t done, or everything that didn’t quite go right, rather than the rabbits we pulled out the hat, the fantastic work that we did, that conversation that went really well. All the stuff.

Katrina Collier (18:19):

The offers accept stuff. [crosstalk 00:18:20].

Sue Ingram (18:20):

So it’s a fantastic exercise just to remind yourself of the truth. Of the truth.

Katrina Collier (18:31):

Oh, I was going to give you my second doozy question.

Sue Ingram (18:34):

Oh, go for it.

Katrina Collier (18:34):

I mean, I totally saved these up for you. You’re the expert at dealing with this stuff. So I got thrown a curve ball, actually. Gorgeous Lithuanian recruiter I’ve done some training with, and she has this hiring manager, she’s dealing with this hiring manager for about six months, and basically this hiring manager wants what we call a unicorn in the industry. They want a bit of this person and they want a bit of that person. So of course, one whole person doesn’t exist. Now, I’m old. I’ve been around a while. I would just literally walk in and go, “I don’t know what you’re talking about. What you’re after is ridiculous. Like, come on. Can we start again?” Even though it’s been six months. But she’s scared to feel that kind of vulnerability and that… It is vulnerability, isn’t it? To be that open and go, “I don’t know what you’re talking about.”

Sue Ingram (19:18):

I wouldn’t necessarily go, “I wouldn’t know what you’re talking about.” I’d go in and say, “I’ve done my best. I’ve looked everywhere. I’ve asked for advice. I’ve done this. I’ve talked to other people, because I have busted my gut to get at this for you. The consensus that has come back from my own experience and from the opinion of others is that you are looking for someone that does occasionally exist, but is actually very rare. And what you are actually looking for appears to be a hybrid of this and that. You are looking for complementary skills. You’re looking for someone who can write software code and sell it.”

Katrina Collier (20:08):

An accountant who can do sales, that kind of thing.

Sue Ingram (20:11):

Exactly. I have known some people to do that, and I can think of one, and if you study personality types, they’re known as creatives, because they actually consist of opposites, but it’s a very small percentile of the population that has that ability and they tend to be massively expensive. My one guy, I was working in IT and banking, in the banking sector. We weren’t a bank, but we were in the banking sector, financial sector. Got poached off me by a bank for a phenomenal amount of money, because-

Katrina Collier (20:53):

He was a unicorn.

Sue Ingram (20:54):

He was the unicorn. He was that absolute rarity. So I would go in and say, “I’ve busted my gut. I’ve done everything. I’ve done my hardest. I’ve spoken to other professionals about this. And it appears, what they are telling me concurs with my experience, and it appears that what you’re looking for only exists in very small percentage of the population. And quite frankly, in this market, we’re not going to find them, because if anyone’s got one of those, they’re throwing everything at them. They’re keeping them.”

Katrina Collier (21:35):

And you also have to think about, if the role’s been open six months, how business critical is it? In six months they could have trained the skills of whatever’s missing.

Sue Ingram (21:44):

What he’s done is he’s found a workaround within his team, hasn’t he? He’s found a workaround, because the work is getting done. So that’s when you sit down and you say, “Let’s revisit, let’s plan again. Is it one post? Is it two posts?” I mean, I know and you know, when I was… Because my background’s HR, hiring managers come running down, “I want this position,” and I’d go after that position, and then two days later they’d come down and say, “I’ve thought about it. Actually I’ve moved people in my team. I’m looking for that position.” Because their first immediate thing is vacancy, speak to the recruiter. Rather than actually think what they want. So this where you can come in and say, “Okay, let’s…” And help coach them through, “What is your need? What is the need within the team? What’s the job that you need fulfilling? What’s the best way of helping you get that job completed?” It may be a hire or it may be reorg or something like that.

Katrina Collier (22:51):

See, I think the issue is one, recruiters aren’t taught how to do that, but mostly, going back to the lack of management training or leadership training, whatever you’d like to call it, that they don’t know how to articulate what they really want. I always think, in chapter five of my book, the intake, the most part of the entire recruitment cycle. And actually, now, I think you would probably… If someone gave you a job requirement, you would probably say, “Well, hang on a minute, let’s just go back a step. Because you learned over the years.”

Sue Ingram (23:24):

I would so. I’ve got to understand. I’ve around the block a few times, and I look like I’ve been around the block a few times.

Katrina Collier (23:30):

We have been, haven’t we? She doesn’t at all. She doesn’t at all. She looks significantly younger than she is.

Sue Ingram (23:31):

I’ve got a little bit of gravitas [crosstalk 00:23:41].

Katrina Collier (23:41):

Gravitas.

Sue Ingram (23:41):

So what I’d say, “Okay, is that really what you want me to do, or do you want to think about it? Okay, I could go and do this now, and you’ll have CVs on your desk this evening. Or do you want to think about it? Because my time is extremely precious and I’ve got a lot on my plate. I will do it if you tell me it’s important.”

Katrina Collier (24:07):

I would slightly change that, though, because some of these hiring managers wouldn’t really care about your time. I would probably say your time is really important and I would be concerned you’ll waste your time interviewing people that actually you’re not looking for. I’m just very aware they’re-

Sue Ingram (24:23):

[crosstalk 00:24:23]. You wouldn’t do that off the bat. You would do that when you’d proved your worth, when you had built trust, they knew that you were a valuable asset to them because you proved yourself in the past. Therefore they have to be a little bit more respectful of you. So it’s a kind of catch 22 thing.

Katrina Collier (24:44):

See, that goes back to I want them to partner. There are two major things wrong with recruitment. One is we recruit on someone’s ability to write a CV. Oh my God, when is that ever going to end? And secondly, we don’t partner. Recruiters don’t partner with their HR teams and their hiring managers well enough, whether they’re external or internal, to do a proper intake, to do a proper everything. To push back and say, “Have we looked at the team? Have you considered others in the team? Have you considered internally?” Actually Jess Von Bank, who was on the previous podcast, was talking about, have we looked internally first? All this sort of stuff. There’s not enough training, support.

Sue Ingram (25:24):

How to piss a really good employee off. Have them have them be excited about a future opportunity in the business and then have them see that opportunity come up and be externally filled. One good person well pissed off. Now I’m looking for another job. They don’t value me here. They don’t love me. I’ve made it clear for the last 18 months I want that type of job, and they’ve gone external for it.

Katrina Collier (25:54):

Anyone wondering how to do that? The sponsor of this podcast WORQDRIVE, plug and play system, very quick, very amazing. Their results are the internal employees going three times a month to look at the current jobs to see that they could aspire to match to, and in this market, which is the worst I’ve seen in 19 years of my career, completely recommend it. Or of course other internal mobility tools in case I upset any listeners.

Sue Ingram (26:22):

And name me a company that doesn’t state, “We look after our people, your career is… We will look after your career if you come and join us.” Exactly. So it’s just so much that you’ve got to walk your talk. That’s how you build trust. You walk your talk and sometimes you have to put effort in to doing that. You have to consciously go, “No, no, no. I made a promise. I will fulfill it.”

Katrina Collier (26:46):

It. But actually I think going back to your earlier advice, if more recruiters were to spend that… Do it on a Friday, for example, so you go into the weekend on a high. Really building that foundation, making sure they’ve got those achievements in place, really respecting what they have done respecting themselves, believing themselves. Then they’ll be far more inclined to push back.

Sue Ingram (27:08):

You cannot ask someone else to respect you without you first respecting yourself, honestly, truthfully standing on your ground. And you may do a review on Friday and go, “Oh damn, that didn’t go so well.” Okay. What’s the learning? What would you do differently? How would you approach it differently? Because there’s a lot in recruitment about your natural intelligence, your natural wit, your natural ability to build rapport and to work frigging hard that makes you successful in recruitment. If you want to really go up another level, you’ve got to do more than just your natural ability. You’ve got to actually apply and learn and do things and review and learn and go, “I’m disappointed by that, but I know what I’d do next time. I would do this.”

Katrina Collier (28:02):

And I think that’s where you see the recruiters who invest in someone like yourself as an external coach or come and join my mastermind program, and it’s that self-reflection and that growth. And for anyone listening who’s like, “Oh, well that’s all well and good Katrina and Sue,” Sue and I didn’t start here. We both tell, and we have our very regular dinners, we are always talk about like how far we have grown because we have taken that time to invest in ourselves, to look at ourselves and learn from our mistakes, find the silver linings in the trauma. And that’s how we built our foundation.

Sue Ingram (28:37):

Yes. And we support one another in our conversations over a glass of wine, which is fabulous, but [crosstalk 00:28:44]-

Katrina Collier (28:43):

More importantly, the souffle at the end of dinner. That’s my version of buns, people, my version.

Sue Ingram (28:49):

Which we say we’re never going to have. We’re not going to have souffle [crosstalk 00:28:59].

Katrina Collier (28:59):

Every time we have our pistachios.

Sue Ingram (29:00):

I have got two people that I… Yes, two people I speak to every week who are my support group? They’re the people I go, “Ah, I’m worried about this,” or, “How do I do that?” They cheer me on. They remind me of my successes. They remind me of who I am. And they hold me accountable to going out and doing stuff. And this is… No one does it alone. I tried doing it alone, and I’m telling you guys, one, it doesn’t work, two, you spin your wheels, just going round and round and round around your own thoughts all the time, which is not pleasant. And you don’t actually move forward. You have to find support to go forward. I’ve had a personal trainer. Why? Because… And it’s making the most massive difference, because he’s supporting me in achieving my objectives.

Katrina Collier (29:55):

Which is, by the way, she has now got two bionic knees.

Sue Ingram (30:03):

I’m really beginning to feel that I’m going to be better than I was before.

Katrina Collier (30:09):

Absolutely. Well, I’ve already seen it because you’re walking so much faster. We are going to have that walking holiday, but apparently it has to be five star, not the version [crosstalk 00:30:17].

Sue Ingram (30:17):

[crosstalk 00:30:17] up mountains in jungles. I’m thinking, “No, that’s not me. That’s not me at all.”

Katrina Collier (30:26):

I like doing crazy stuff. What can I say?

Sue Ingram (30:30):

I know. I want a proper bed and a bath. I don’t mind walking, [inaudible 00:30:36].

Katrina Collier (30:35):

I always get a hot shower. I don’t think I’d do any of these without one of those. That’s not true. Sorry, that’s not true, [crosstalk 00:30:41].

Sue Ingram (30:41):

No, I know it’s not true. What was that one you were talking about doing? Was it Tasmania or something? Not, it wasn’t Tasmania. It was somewhere exotic.

Katrina Collier (30:51):

Oh, I was going to do one in Papua New Guinea, but pandemic.

Sue Ingram (30:53):

That’s one, but COVID came and mucked everything up, didn’t it?

Katrina Collier (30:58):

Nevermind. So Sue Ingram, fantastic woman of difficult conversations. If people want to find out more about you, where should they go?

Sue Ingram (31:07):

They can find me on LinkedIn. Sue Ingram, Converse Well on LinkedIn. That’s one of the best ways to stay in touch. Because I’m always [crosstalk 00:31:16]-

Katrina Collier (31:16):

So Sue Ingram Converse Well.

Sue Ingram (31:18):

Yeah. They can obviously email me. Sue@conversewell. They can download my 13 page workbook on how to plan a difficult conversation.

Katrina Collier (31:30):

I didn’t know you had one those.

Sue Ingram (31:34):

Which is really good. Which is conversewell.com/dc. You can buy my book, Fire Well, available at Amazon.

Katrina Collier (31:41):

Buy multiple copies for all of your leaders.

Sue Ingram (31:44):

I had an HR person, actually, the other day saying, “Your book is fabulous.” She bought about a year ago. She said, “I’m actually doing what it says now, and it’s making the biggest difference.” And I go, “Yes.”

Katrina Collier (31:59):

By the way, I assume that you don’t end up firing everybody. [crosstalk 00:32:03] like, “I’m not buying that for my boss. I’ll be fired.”

Sue Ingram (32:08):

No, the book actually is all about how to build the relationship with somebody so that you can tell them… And the same principles apply to your boss. You just have to be slightly more politically aware. And also the big thing with feedback to a boss is to understand their world.

Katrina Collier (32:24):

Talk business.

Sue Ingram (32:25):

Understand their world. Find something that you can respect them for. They’re only a human being trying to do a big job and probably petrified. I have coached… This is one thing, isn’t it, Katrina. When you coach people, you see the inside of people. There was one guy I coached, his intellect was superb, his achievements were revolutionary. He was just the most nice guy you’ve ever met. Just wonderful. Yet why did he hire me as a coach? Because he had doubt. And with me, confidentiality and all that kind of thing, he could go, “I’m not sure. Are they going to think I’m bit of an idiot if I do that?” He had those exact things, because he’s human and everyone’s human. So with a boss, you need to understand their world. What are the pressures that they are under, and believe you me, they will be there.

Katrina Collier (33:30):

Perfect. What a way to end. Sue Ingram, thank you so much for all of that. Amazing as ever.

Sue Ingram (33:37):

My pleasure. I love talking to you. I love talking to your guys. I love talking, let’s face it.

Katrina Collier (33:44):

She’s a little bit of an extrovert, the old Sue. Thanks again, Sue.

Sue Ingram (33:50):

My pleasure. My pleasure, darling. Thank you.

Katrina Collier (33:51):

Thank you for listening to The Hiring Partner Perspective unedited podcast, proudly supported by the people at WORQDRIVE. Hopefully you really enjoyed what you and have left feeling inspired. And if so, I would love your help to create real change. Please pass this podcast onto your hiring leaders and other recruiters in HR. Even share it on your social channels, if you feel so inclined. But the more reach we can get, the more change we can create. So please remember to subscribe, of course, on your favorite podcast platform, and do you come and say hello @HiringPartnerPerspective on Instagram, where I share behind the scenes of what’s going on. Until next time, thank you.