Educating upwards will help you deliver a better candidate experience
You may know Lisa Haggar as the self-described ‘lass with sass’ on LinkedIn or perhaps from her 3 decades contributing to the HR profession. Either way, she is a brilliant person to talk to about tough subjects, like this one!
Strap yourselves in for this one, as we laugh and chat about:
- experiencing recruitment as a HR candidate and the problem with grilling applicants and interviewer power-games, inspired by this post.
- experiencing the worst candidate experience, to know how to make it better!
- not paying people their worth and what you could do instead.
- don’t lowball, develop people!
- great questions to ask at interview, no matter your age or the seniority of the person interviewing you.
- be bold enough to educate upwards.
- the difference of being spoken at or with.
- giving referrals to the companies that deliver a great candidate experience.
Grab a cuppa, pen and paper and settle in! ✍🏻
Full Transcript: Lisa Haggar on Educating Upwards & Candidate Experience
Katrina Collier (00:00):
Hello, I am Katrina Collier, and as part of my mission to inspire all of the people that recruit people to treat people better, I bring you The Hiring Partner Perspective (Unedited) podcast. Here, you will hear from those hiring leaders who create true partnerships with recruiters, HR, and talent acquisition, because they know that it delivers a better result for the business, and a better human experience. May this podcast inspire other hiring leaders to create better partnerships with their recruiters in HR, and may it inspire recruiters to create true and valuable partnerships with their hiring leaders, because people make businesses succeed, and people matter. So let us begin.
Katrina Collier (00:42):
Lisa Haggar, welcome to The Hiring Partner Perspective podcast, proudly supported by the people at WORQDRIVE. Great to have you here. Now, I am going to let you introduce yourself, because you have many hats, right?
Lisa Haggar (01:01):
I do, yes.
Katrina Collier (01:04):
Pick one. Which is your favourite at the moment?
Lisa Haggar (01:07):
Oh, that’s a good question. It varies some days on that one. Yes, so my name is Lisa Haggar, as you have just said. I have worked in HR for over 30 years. Yes, I’m that old-
Katrina Collier (01:16):
Which is not possible.
Lisa Haggar (01:17):
And yeah, so I do a combination of HR, I’m a coach, I’m a speaker, I do a lot of charity work, as well, but I’m known on being on LinkedIn, because I’m the lass with sass, who dares to say what other people will think, or daren’t say, because I think we need to start doing things… As an industry, we have to do better, and be far more people-centric, and I’m very vocal about that, and it’s heartfelt, and genuine. So I create a lot of noise, and got lots of followers on my posts, simply because they go, “Oh, my gosh, she works in HR, and she said that,” and it’s like, “Yes, I did. Yes I did, and I stand by it, because it’s the only way to kind of make some change and make an impact.”
Katrina Collier (02:02):
Yeah, which I think is why you and I got on so well. It’s like-
Lisa Haggar (02:07):
I think we’re related, Katrina.
Katrina Collier (02:09):
I do believe so. People might be confused when they hear my accent, even through my COVID cough, but it’s still that we’re both very forthright, but I think, also, we give tips. It’s not like we just rant for the sake of ranting, and all on that, of course, it was a post that I messaged you about, which was a LinkedIn post that said, “ISN’T IT ABOUT TIME WE STOPPED?” That was in capital letters. I could actually hear you yelling, that we stopped interviewing, like it’s a courtroom.
Katrina Collier (02:39):
Think about it for a moment. You, the defendant, go in and set your case, why they would want to hire you, while the jury, a panel of the interviewers, decide on your fate. The job description states what they need, and what they want, and what traits they’re looking for, and it’s enough, and obviously, you went on to give some great advice. What prompted that post, other than that little “open to hire” banner, which is always a sign you’re going through a candidate experience hellhole.
Lisa Haggar (03:04):
Yes, well, again, that’s… And it has been, actually, because, obviously, in HR, we’re usually the ones who are doing the interviewing. So when you find yourself… The shoe’s on the other foot, it’s always, I think you go through that experience in a different way than if you don’t work in HR, but it came from, again, from the early experience of putting myself out there, having some great conversations, and then, being invited to interviews. And some of them have been the best, and some of them have been most horrific.
Educating upwards, even during an interview!
Lisa Haggar (03:33):
One particular was I was invited to go for the second interview to meet the CEO, great. Went into a room, which had a long, big mahogany desk, like old-fashioned kind of courtroom, with the wooden walls, and it felt like a coffin, to be honest. And he sat at one end, and, of course, I went in the room, and sort of walked this long plank, so to be, and sort of shook his hand, and said, “Nice to meet you. Where would you like me to sit?” And he was like, “There’s a chair there,” and it was at the other end of the desk. This desk sat 20 people, so I then had to do the walk of shame back to this empty seat, and sit down, and I felt like a 12-year-old lost little girl, and-
Katrina Collier (04:19):
Lisa Haggar (04:21):
I’m a confident person, as many will know, or will get to know, and even then, I felt awkward and uncomfortable, and I just took that moment to be really mindful about that experience, and whilst I could see his lips moving, I couldn’t hear anything, because I was too busy literally being in that moment. And I thought to myself, my whole self was like, “Actually, Lisa, is this acceptable?” And don’t get me wrong, I accept that not everybody’s in the position that I am in. So be able to say, actually, “Well, I’ve got lots more interviews lined up. I’ll see you later.” So I do respect that.
Lisa Haggar (04:59):
I’m not saying that my approach, what I’m about to tell you I did, is right for everybody. But I hope it empowers somebody to sort of just check themselves in, and say, “Okay, you don’t have to experience this. This is a two-way street.” So I then was just seeing the lips moving, and nothing, experiencing my own. Actually, I feel nervous where I’m not… If you’d asked me my own name again, I wouldn’t have been able to tell you, and that’s how extraordinary it’d make feel. And I was like, “No, this is not acceptable. This is not acceptable.” So I went and took a couple of minutes, then kind of, mentally came back in the room, and then it was like, “No.”
Lisa Haggar (05:33):
So I just politely stood up and said, “Can I just stop you there? This may appear rude, but, actually, it’s not meant to be. It’s meant to be the opposite. My experience of your company so far has been awful, from when I had to write the application, I had to then write a whole page of justification of why I’m good enough to come in here. “Why me?” Which is so outdated. Then, the first interview, you had two people interview me that didn’t have a clue, couldn’t answer the questions that I asked them. Now, I’m meeting in… You’ve put me in this environment that just makes you feel awkward, and this is about power.
Katrina Collier (06:11):
Lisa Haggar (06:11):
I said, “And right now, you feel that you have the power, and I’m going to shock you by telling you, you don’t; I do, because I’m not giving it to you. I’m giving it to me, right here, right now. So, thank you for your time, and I am politely going to leave, and the respectful part of that is, I hope you take home the feedback. I hope you never make anybody else feel the way that you’ve made me feel. I hope, as a leader, that you take some something from this, but also, that I’m not going to waste another half an hour of your time, or mine. My time is just as precious as yours, so thank you, sir, for your time. I appreciate you, and I’ll see myself out,” and that’s exactly what I did.
Katrina Collier (06:47):
Wow, I’m so proud of you, because these are these CEOs and leaders, where, sometimes, when I get the opportunity to speak in front of them, and if I have their names, I can look, they haven’t changed jobs in 5, 10, 15 years, and it’s long enough that they just don’t understand the swing in the market, from, “Oh, be grateful you’ve got a job,” to, “Be grateful you’ve got employees.” It has swung that far, which in our careers, our 30 year careers, is quite a shock, right?
Lisa Haggar (07:16):
Yes. Yeah. Yeah, definitely, but, again, it comes back from not understanding the market, and being so far removed from your operational business, that you might sit at the top and see the numbers, but you haven’t got a clue what’s actually going on in your environment, or for some people, they don’t care. As long as they’re making the dollars, and the numbers add up, and the shareholders, and the board, and the investors are all happy, then who gives a shit, right?
Katrina Collier (07:39):
What made you persevere through the application? I don’t even think I would’ve got that far.
Lisa Haggar (07:45):
Again, it’s because I wanted to experience it, and, again, for me, when people go through that, I have always said to people, “Treat people as you wish to be treated.” So I purposely put myself in very uncomfortable, unique situations, so that I can experience the worst. So I resonate with people, and I say, “Actually, I can empathise, truly empathise with that.” So I did it as almost like a social experiment to myself, to see what other people see, and feel how other people feel. And the ones that were the worst, I was like, “Nah, I’m over it,” and one of them was like, you say, you’re talking big brand names. It’s like, “Oh, and this is what we do, and here’s a series of six interviews.”
Katrina Collier (08:24):
Lisa Haggar (08:25):
And it equates to probably 20, 30 hours of your job, and then they wanted a presentation that took probably around two or three days to do a good job, because I’m bit of a perfectionist when it comes to that. So when it got down to the last two, and they said, “Thanks, but no, thanks,” they actually wanted another candidate, who I also know very, very well, and she rang me afterwards to say, “I’ve got it.”
Lisa Haggar (08:46):
We both knew we were going against each other, and we were fine with that, and I said, “Great,” and she said, “Can I just ask you one question?” I said, “Yeah.” “What salary were they going to pay you?” So I told her, and she said, “That’s why they went with me, then, because I was cheaper,” and it made me laugh, because we were [crosstalk 00:08:59], but they actually turned around. They said that they liked my approach better, and would she call me and ask me about how I went around and did that? So they wanted my concept, and they made her ring me-
Katrina Collier (09:14):
Oh, f*ck off!
Lisa Haggar (09:14):
Right? They made her ring me, and say, “Oh Lisa, they went with me.” That’s okay. We find out that they were paying her less. She was horrified, and then afterwards, she said, “I really don’t want to do this, but I’m being made to do this. So they liked your concept, but I just can’t do all the moving parts, because I don’t quite get where you were coming with it.” I said, “No,” because, one, my neurodiverse brain doesn’t write it all down; it’s visual. Two, I’m not about to give away my IP.
Katrina Collier (09:39):
Lisa Haggar (09:40):
So if you want that, that’s fine. I’ll send you an invoice for it, and also send you an invoice for my 27 hours of interviews and prep.
Katrina Collier (09:47):
Lisa Haggar (09:48):
And I didn’t [crosstalk 00:09:51].
Katrina Collier (09:48):
Yeah, that’s kind of…
Lisa Haggar (09:52):
Yeah, she was like, “Yeah, I probably don’t think you’re good for that.” I said, “No,” but yeah.
Katrina Collier (09:54):
What a hilarious… So we’re, basically, paying less and not getting the person we need, and it’s 2022. Did you see that amazing Twitter bot that went, on International Women’s Day, which was absolutely amazing, so anytime anybody posted, it would retweet the post with what the pay gap was.
Lisa Haggar (10:15):
Katrina Collier (10:17):
So, and it’d be like, “Oh, this company pays minus 52%, so the women are paid 52% less than the men.” And then, of course, even if they deleted the original post, the username, the handle, would stay in the tweet. Absolutely brilliant. Everyone was just sitting there glued, because it was… But it’s like what you’re talking about. They deliberately… They could have paid her the same. It’s just, it’s that-
Lisa Haggar (10:39):
Well, and see, that’s another thing, for me, is that whole pay piece, is during COVID, you’ve seen less jobs, obviously, because everyone was going through a tough time, and I get that, okay? And company was cutting the cords accordingly, and I get that, but you’re still seeing, at that point, I was seeing HRD jobs advertised for $45,000. It’s like, “Really?” The person’s skills haven’t got any less, what you need delivered hasn’t got any less, but all of a sudden it’s devalued by 50%? Really? Oh, my God. So that was a shock, but now, you’ve got some people that have said, “Actually, no, they are commanding some huge numbers now.”
Katrina Collier (11:16):
Lisa Haggar (11:17):
And just as I’ve said, but you’ve still got too many people sort of saying, “Well, I had one person contact me and say, ‘This is the job. Can you tell me what you want for it?'” I said, “No, no, let’s let’s change that. What budget have you got?” And people won’t answer that question, “What’s in your budget?” They do not want to say that. They’ll say, “Oh, well it’s a roundabout,” or “Market rates.” [inaudible 00:11:43] “No, okay, what’s the…” Because, again, had a number of interviews where, when it turns out, “Well, we haven’t got the budget past $60,000.” Well, then, thank you, but I’m not at that level. I’m way more than that, so you can’t afford me. Why waste my time, even in the beginning? So I always say to people, “What’s your budget?” And very few people will actually come out and say what’s in their actual budget. They’ll maybe budget for $60, $100, $150, it makes no difference. They’ll budget for that, but they don’t really want to spend that. They want to spend a lot less.
Lisa Haggar (12:12):
But I always say to people, again, in businesses, where I’m part of that, I say, “Well, no, we have the budget, so that means we spend up to that. If we get somebody who’s less experienced, and a bit of a grower, that’s fine, but if we save $10K, that $10K in my budget gets reinvested in their development, so if that gets coaching, or mentoring, or courses, or anything, that’s actually… So what’s the difference between that figure and that skill level? Okay, we reinvest that, so that they are at the top level,” or we say, “Okay, we’ll put a development plan in, and in 6 months or 12 months…” And we’d put that in writing, because that’s a commitment that people say, “You’re not quite there. You’re almost there. The money’s there, so let’s grow you into that money.” That’s the right thing to do.
Katrina Collier (12:53):
By having that honest conversation with a candidate, and they’re knowing their areas of development, they’re not going to come in like that poor girl, that post that went absolutely nuts, where the girl foolishly tweeted that she low-balled a candidate by 45,000. The applicant wouldn’t come in, and find out they’re being paid less, and then get resentful, and then look to leave, and then all of the people around them that they’re going to influence, as well.
Lisa Haggar (13:22):
Oh, massive [crosstalk 00:13:23].
Katrina Collier (13:22):
With all of that negativity instead, they’re coming, and going, “Oh, gosh, I’m going to get developed,” which is actually what everybody wants, including our generation. I’ll just throw that out there, like I always do. For some I don’t think we want to be developed. I have yet to [crosstalk 00:13:38].
Educating upwards to CEOs
Lisa Haggar (13:38):
No it was a question I asked one of the CEOs, actually, as one of the other interviews. He’d asked these questions, and I said, “Oh, is it okay if I asked some questions?” He said, “Yeah, that’s great.” I said, “Well, can I ask you the questions that you’ve asked me?” “Oh, okay.” So I said, “You’ve talked about what I can bring, et cetera, et cetera. That’s fine,” I said, “but like you, I’m 51, but I’m not done yet. Every day is a school day for me. I still push myself about what I don’t know. So I’m here to look after your people, and look after your business. That’s great. How can you help me develop further? What are you going to do, as my leader, as my person that I’m inspired by, how are you going to push me? How are you going to challenge me?
Lisa Haggar (14:18):
And he was like, “[inaudible 00:14:20],” and again, I said, “If you can’t answer the question, again, honesty first, tell me you can’t answer the question. I’d respect it you’d go, ‘I haven’t got a clue,’ at least, versus trying to make something up on the fly, which is what you’re trying to do right now. So let’s just be honest. If you don’t know, you don’t know, and he goes, “I don’t know. He said, I just assumed, because you’ve got 30 years experience, that, in fact, you know everything you need to know, and you were just going to come in and share it with us, and I said, “No, I don’t know everything in the world.”
Katrina Collier (14:51):
No. I had this exact conversation, actually, about years of experience doesn’t mean that you know everything.
Lisa Haggar (14:56):
Katrina Collier (14:57):
Now, obviously, you know plenty. We know that, right? Because you talk a lot, and everyone sees your opinion, and you’re highly sought after. This particular Talent Acquisition Professional was talking about their HRBP. She’s goes, “She’s got six years of experience. Why doesn’t understand TA?” “Okay, well, maybe nobody’s ever explained it to her in the whole six years she’s been a HRBP.” Years of experience doesn’t necessarily equate.
Katrina Collier (15:21):
We all know people who have been working for 30 years, and are not totally, utterly dynamic, and pushing the envelope, and learning, and they’re just very happy just take the salary and go home, which is not you. One of the things I loved about your post was, of course, you wrote your future CEO job description, and people-centric leader, and you want emotional intelligence, and integrity, and compassion, et cetera. I, of course, particularly liked good sense of humour, and animal-lover would be a bonus, of course, but I’m curious. Did anybody actually reach out? Did any CEOs read that and go, “Oh, Lisa, hi.”
Lisa Haggar (15:55):
Do you know what? They did. I had seven.
Katrina Collier (15:57):
Ah, that’s awesome, seven!
Lisa Haggar (15:58):
Seven people contacted me. They, obviously, when I do a post like that, and it goes crazy, I have a lot of people-
Katrina Collier (16:04):
It did go crazy. It’s had like 4,000 reactions or something.
Lisa Haggar (16:07):
…connections and stuff, and from that, lots of CEOs connected, and I had seven CEOs reach out, and sort of say, “Actually, I really liked the post, and we’re sort of tinkering about, and [inaudible 00:16:18] stuff, like where you’re coming from. This is actually inspiring. These are the types of people we want to help lead our business. Let’s have a conversation.”
Katrina Collier (16:26):
Lisa Haggar (16:26):
Katrina Collier (16:27):
So what would you say to people that don’t have that? I mean, I mentioned before, actually, the same talent acquisition professional, who has just been fired for being too people-centric, and wanting the best for a company, and being too demanding. Of course, she’s been very much like you and I, to be fair. What would you say? Because, I mean, to me, I feel like the universe gave her a kick to get out the door and go get a proper job where she’s really respected. What do you say to people, though, that are feeling disempowered in their companies, and that maybe have a bit of fear, that really there isn’t a company out there that will appreciate them?
Lisa Haggar (17:00):
Again, I describe myself as Marmite. You either get me or you don’t, or Vegemite, in your case.
Katrina Collier (17:06):
I’m Vegemite, totally.
Lisa Haggar (17:11):
And that’s okay with me, and I don’t worry about that, and that comes with age, that comes with experience, that comes with facing adversity, et cetera, et cetera. So I get that I am stronger than most, but in terms of… I attract the people in my life that are like me, and get me, and so I think that if you put you right vibrations out there, then people on your wavelength, they can reach out to you, but the same way is the market has changed now. There are an awful lot of opportunities out there. Don’t feel that you have to change yourself.
Lisa Haggar (17:42):
If that means there’s only 20% of the market that get you, that you become attracted to, that’s okay, because that 20% are the ones where you will thrive, that you will fit, that are people like yourself, that are, like-minded like yourself. That won’t question, that won’t be curious, that won’t just say, “Yes,” or put lipstick on a pig. So that 20% is more powerful than trying to be all things to all people, to fit in, and just don’t be anything else but yourself, and although you feel that you’re probably fishing in a smaller pond, it’s the right pond.
Katrina Collier (18:18):
Lisa Haggar (18:18):
So yeah, rather than you’ll end up going through 80% of the mill, lots of interviews, and you’ll be getting “No,” “No,” “No,” “No,” “No,” because you don’t fit, and that just becomes self-deprecating, and then you think, “Oh, I’m not good enough,” and your confidence goes, and those sorts of things. So that’s why that would be my advice to people.
Katrina Collier (18:37):
Yeah, and I think, if one thing in this market, as well, the things that really matter now are recruitment and retention. So it’s like a really good TA team and a really good HR team. It’s so important, isn’t it? And therefore, I think you absolutely owe it to the company you’re working for, and yourself, to find a match, to find one that will understand that those two teams are so incredibly important.
Lisa Haggar (19:00):
Katrina Collier (19:01):
It’s, of course, different. It hasn’t it always been seen that way, sadly.
Lisa Haggar (19:05):
No, and they’re not mutually exclusive, either, are they?
Katrina Collier (19:07):
Lisa Haggar (19:09):
But, again, it’s about being able to be in the position where you can educate upwards. A lot of people do their day job, and they think, “Well, I couldn’t. I’m not in a position to go and say to the CEO, ‘Do you know what’s happening in your arena? Do you know actually the impact of the environment that’s going on? Do you know actually how difficult it is to recruit, because there’s four layers above me?'”
Lisa Haggar (19:29):
And I say to people, “Well, if you’ve got something to say, unless you approach them, or try to, you’ll never know. You’d be surprised how many say, “Actually, could we just have a quick coffee, 20 minutes? I’ve just found some [inaudible 00:19:40]. I just wanted to let you know about the market. There’s been some really interesting things I found out, and you might want to know, just interesting about your business. Would you like to know about them?” You’d be surprised how many people go, “Actually, yeah. I’m busy this week, but you know what? Next week would be good.”
Katrina Collier (19:56):
Yeah, and I think it’s going in that much more, “I’ve got something to share about the market. Are you aware it’s like this? We’ve approached this many people, and they’ve turned us down. We’ve lost counter-offers,” and really going in with the facts and stats, not the emotion.
Lisa Haggar (20:08):
Katrina Collier (20:09):
Lisa Haggar (20:10):
Yeah, because all that’s, again, in terms of data, is important, and the impact of say, from when, again, taken through my recent experience of the amount of interviews you’ve had, and then the amount of space you have in between, I’d had another four offers, and I’d turned them down, and I said, “Sorry, but I’ve already taken an offer, and this has been going on for three weeks.” That’s a long time in this environment, because things are moving at pace.
Lisa Haggar (20:38):
People are nailing down good people as quick as possible, whereas before, about, “Oh, well, we’ll do first interviews, then, and then we’ll wait two weeks,” and the companies can’t afford to do that now. They need to really [inaudible 00:20:49] to get the best people. The best people aren’t on the market for long, so they need to ramp up that timeline. You’ve seen it yourself, where [inaudible 00:20:57], and it’ll be on somebody’s desk for four days. It’s like, “Yeah, and in that four days, they’ve had two interviews somewhere else.” So by the time you got [inaudible 00:21:05] that, “I really like these three,” we’re gone.
Katrina Collier (21:08):
Well, particularly, if you’re recruiting knowledge workers who are flexible or remote working, they can just jump on. How easy was it for us to jump on this? It was so easy, right? I send you a link, here we are. We’re online. I don’t have to fake a dentist appointment. I don’t have to physically leave the building, and somehow get out, and scurry off, and have an interview in my Sunday best. It’s not like that anymore. We just jump on a video, so it’s easier for people to be interviewing, and have multiple stuff on the go. Yeah.
Lisa Haggar (21:35):
Yeah, it’s a good question, actually. We’re doing the online interviews. I was asked the question, “Do I prefer to be interviewed online or in person?” And it was a good question, because, obviously, before it was never a question. It wasn’t because it just wasn’t done. People would have thought you were crazy. Even if you said in the days of Skype, that you would just do it by Skype, they’ve been like, “What?” And actually, I like being interviewed on screen. It doesn’t put me off, actually, because I’m in my own home.
Lisa Haggar (22:04):
I think there’s an element that, one, you feel more comfortable instantly, so you’ve not got to do that office, and that walk of shame, but, two, like you say, although this is a vocal recording, I can see your home. You can see mine. You see a bit of part of people’s lives and things, and so you can start to kind of resonate with people, and you feel comfortable, and they’re a human being, not a candidate. They’re a human being, not your potential boss, and I think that, emotionally, when you’re going into something that can be a nervous experience, I think that already helped people.
Katrina Collier (22:33):
Lisa Haggar (22:34):
Yeah, so I think that, actually, the online stuff, while it’s not as personal, you can’t kind of feel the emotion in the room as much, I think, from the candidate experience, I think it’s a far better experience for everybody. I don’t know-
Katrina Collier (22:48):
Yeah, I think there’s a few rules on that, just making sure that hiring managers turn up on time. That’s a big one. It’s amazing how they’ll think it’s okay, because it’s a video chat, to be late, and then not apologise, and it’s like, “No, still be on time. It still makes an impression, and have your camera on.”
Lisa Haggar (23:05):
Katrina Collier (23:06):
Or both have your cameras off, whichever, as long as both… Yeah, oh, there’s some excellent… Have you come across recruiting hell on Reddit?
Lisa Haggar (23:14):
No, no. I’m going to write that down.
Katrina Collier (23:15):
Oh, let me send you that link.
Lisa Haggar (23:15):
Katrina Collier (23:17):
It’s just hilarious, and it’s full of horror stories, and one of them that I bring out a lot in my presentations, is about being grilled, with his camera had to be on, and their cameras were off. I mean, could you imagine? I’d be like, “Oh yeah.”
Lisa Haggar (23:32):
Katrina Collier (23:33):
Yeah, stressful. I mean, you and I speak, and we’re used to doing webinars, and stuff like that, so we’d be fine, but as an interview? Yeah, no, because that was the whole thing, wasn’t it, with your post, was, this is two-way? Actually, the other thing you mentioned in here is your hiring managers still not giving you enough time to ask them questions.
Lisa Haggar (23:51):
Yes, because you, obviously, you have lots of experiences where they’ll tell you all about the company, then you get grilled, and then, you’ve got like five minutes left, and it’s like, “Oh, have you got any questions?” And you think, “I’ve got loads of questions, but no, I haven’t got enough time.” So I will say, I’ve gotten quite a few, “Do you have time for that?” And they go, “Oh, well, no, I’ve got a [inaudible 00:24:10] out,” or whatever. “Okay, do you want to email me them?” And that, to me, kind of feels a bit, “Oh, well I can do, but then that doesn’t really feel like there’s context in that.” As we all know, emails are not really a great communication tool.
Katrina Collier (24:26):
Lisa Haggar (24:26):
I don’t think so, anyway. So it’s like, there’s no context. There’s no chance to kind of do any rebuttal law, “Is it this?” Or, “Can I clarify that?” Again, so that was a bit like, “Okay, yeah.” So being spoken with, and talked at, they are two very different camps, and I’ve experienced both, and hat’s always an interesting dynamic, yeah.
Katrina Collier (24:47):
It totally needs to be with, this is 2022. It’s a two-way conversation. Actually, you’ve just reminded me of something. Did you see… I don’t know if it crossed your radar yet, but there’s a TikTok that’s gone viral, it’s got one and a half million views or something the last time I saw it, where this man was accidentally sent the email from HR, that he shouldn’t have been included on, which was talking about him being rejected because he didn’t turn up to an interview, an online interview, because he didn’t receive the email about it.
Katrina Collier (25:17):
Now, I’ve had that happen, personally, where someone sent me a Zoom invite and I’ve not got it, and it was just the fact that they just didn’t give him the benefit of the doubt, when I have had thousands upon thousands of emails, myself, go astray. It’s just mind-blowing, but it was also, when I then shared it in a HR group on Facebook, with some of the comments from HR professionals that were so bitchy and unnecessary, and I was trying to make the point, “HR made an error here, so be careful, because one and a half million people have seen that error.” Even though he didn’t say the company, eventually it came out, of course.
Lisa Haggar (25:48):
Yeah, of course
Katrina Collier (25:50):
And they were going, “Oh, but he’s very irritating. I wouldn’t have hired him anyway.” I’m sorry, what? It doesn’t matter whether he’s irritating or not, he’s had a shocking candidate experience, and he’s talking about it publicly.
Lisa Haggar (26:02):
And the fact that, like you say, the people experts have jumped on the bandwagon. “Well, it’s his fault, and actually, he was irritating,” but that whole judgmental piece.
Katrina Collier (26:13):
Lisa Haggar (26:13):
It’s like, “Who are you? Who do you think you are? Who gives you right to judge and say, ‘Well, this…’?” It’s like, “No, I think you’ve forgotten your position.” Again, it comes back to tick boxing, and, again, that kind of experience is send over an invite, and then, I was like, “Take somebody’s number,” and then, the day before, I’ll say, “Just check. Just check you’ve had that come through, because sometimes mines goes in my junk box, and gets lost, because there’s billions that [inaudible 00:26:37] every day. Just making sure you’ve got all of that, and if there’s anything else you need from me, ready for tomorrow to sign up with, if you’ve got any technical issues, here’s my number. We’ll just have a phone call. That’s absolutely fine. So don’t worry about it. We’ve got plan A, we’ve got plan B.”
Katrina Collier (26:49):
Lisa Haggar (26:49):
Katrina Collier (26:49):
Use WhatsApp on the desktop, and send them a message you’ll know they got, things like that. Yeah.
Lisa Haggar (26:58):
Yeah, I’ve done it. I’ve interviewed on WhatsApp before, because they said, “Okay, well something’s going wrong, so do you know what? We’ll do it that way.”
Katrina Collier (27:03):
Lisa Haggar (27:04):
Yeah, and if you want a video, you’ve got WhatsApp on video anyway.
Katrina Collier (27:08):
Well, I’d set my new email up, and apparently, they didn’t add something to the header, because they don’t do that automatically unless people ask for it, because it can confuse something. So for like 1% of people they do it. To appease 1% of people, they don’t do this thing. So all of my emails were going to spam, or filtered, or junk on my brand new email, and I was getting so frustrated, and it was like, “Okay.” Now it’s fixed. It’s great, but it’s that experience of then people reply, and they don’t have contact details, and you can’t get in touch, and back and forth. I think we should give people the benefit of the doubt, that’s for sure. I think I just used this as an excuse to rant about my email.
Lisa Haggar (27:46):
No, but it’s good. Like I said, but it’s all about somebody else’s experience, because what’s the point? And when we take it back to it, well what’s the point? The point is, those have I’ve had great experiences with, I will talk about highly. I will go and eat there. I will go hang out there. I will go and recommend their services to somebody, et cetera, et cetera, because I’ve spoke to CEOs. These are really good companies, some nice people there. It wasn’t quite right for me, but you know what? Great, and I will be a brand ambassador for all of those I’ve had a great experience.
Lisa Haggar (28:14):
Those I haven’t, whilst I’m not a person that will go and name-and-shame, my experience has been my experience, and, again, our paths will cross at some point, and especially, I had one which was just completely hideous, and then, as soon as they found out that I accepted a role, the first thing they did was ring up and say, “Oh, right, so you’d be wanting a recruiter then?” “Yes, I will.” “All right, well, we’ll have an early chat.” “What’s to chat about?” “Because we know each other, then we could your provider.”
Katrina Collier (28:48):
Oh, they’re an agency, a recruitment agency.
Lisa Haggar (28:50):
Yeah, yeah. Right.
Katrina Collier (28:51):
Oh, my God, no.
Lisa Haggar (28:53):
So I said, “Let me just retrace our steps. This is what happened. This was my experience. This is then what happened. This is then what happened another time, and you think that I would want to work with your company, representing the place I’m about to work all myself. That would be a very polite, big unquestionable…”
Katrina Collier (29:12):
Lisa Haggar (29:12):
You’re diluted, love. Yeah, and I used the word “love” in a very condescending way on purpose, so that was just because [inaudible 00:29:23], so I did.
Katrina Collier (29:24):
Absolutely. No, occasionally I feel it has its place, but, particularly, if you’ve just been so badly treated, and then they think that’s fine.
Lisa Haggar (29:33):
Well, they didn’t think that they had, and they said, “Well, that’s our process.” Yeah, so go-
Katrina Collier (29:41):
What, ghosting people?
Lisa Haggar (29:42):
[inaudible 00:29:42], and I said, “So go back and check your process, because it doesn’t work, and go and speak to your employer, because clearly you are one of the recruiters that just throws enough shit at the wall, and some will stick. Everybody gets paid, so nobody cares.” I said, “You’re dealing with people’s lives. You should care about every individual person. I’m not saying you need to go be best friends, and go to Sunday lunch together, but what I’m saying is, you are dealing with human beings, they are putting trust and faith in your hands, and you have treated them abysmally. How dare you? And yet, on your website, it talks about integrity. You need to just take that off your website, because you don’t [inaudible 00:30:18] and answer it,” so yeah.
Katrina Collier (30:21):
Lisa Haggar (30:21):
Katrina Collier (30:22):
So true, and I do love… I’ve just written the second edition of The Robot-Proof Recruiter, which we’ll be out in August, and it was interesting going through, and it has become even more transparent. The internet opened the door, so people that are treating people [crosstalk 00:30:42].
Lisa Haggar (30:41):
I’ve still got, and for those of you who can’t see, because, obviously, this is-
Katrina Collier (30:41):
We need a little screenshot of Lisa holding my book up. Yay!
Lisa Haggar (30:46):
I’m still on the first one, so, yes. I need to get the second one, but I just wanted to show you [crosstalk 00:30:48].
Katrina Collier (30:47):
Yeah, I just got you with your mouth open. No, totally the second one, because I have… Oh, she’s she’s totally posing, anyone listening on the podcast. Yeah, no, please get both, because I’m still donating my royalties to Hope for Justice.
Lisa Haggar (31:04):
Katrina Collier (31:04):
But it was that transparency piece, and what you said is so important. We play with people’s lives, and that includes the hiring managers, who are hopefully listening to this podcast, and getting some ideas, and your CEOs, and everybody. We are. If you are hiring anybody, you are playing with that person’s life, but if you don’t, the cost is huge. Should the bottom line to your candidate experience to your ability to retain staff? Yes, crazy.
Lisa Haggar (31:31):
Yeah, I mean recruitment, it’s an expensive part, it’s this huge part of your budget.
Katrina Collier (31:38):
Lisa Haggar (31:39):
It’s easy to get right, though. That’s what just blows my brain, right? Is it’s so easy to get right. You just need to think about it a little bit more, and not have such a rigid process. I get the process [inaudible 00:31:53] to be efficient, and they are some of the foundations. I get that, okay? I respect that. However, being kind isn’t in the process, right? Doing the right thing, and one of the biggest things is, say, when people have sort of clicked on lots of jobs, and they have that email that comes and says, “Oh, if you don’t hear back within five days, take it you’ve not got the job.”
Katrina Collier (32:15):
Lisa Haggar (32:16):
Yeah, absolutely eye rolling, rude. Most people have some kind of automated system. Yes, and I get that, but it wouldn’t take, what, 15, 20 minutes? Literally, they just have a box that you have to tick. You’ve already put your template. Say, “Thank you. I’ve gone another candidate. Thank you, but unsuccessful this time.” Just so somebody knows to score it off their list, because they were waiting to hear back from three of four. They are critical roles for them. They may have not got a job, or desperately need one, so they need to know where…
Lisa Haggar (32:48):
So it’s not rocket science to do that, so then people know, one way or the other, and, yes, I get that not everybody can have the time for feedback. Although, I would like to think that people did the right thing where they needed to. That’s another bugbear of mine, but, however, you’ve got the automated system, and yet they come up with this, and that’s on some of the big-named HR agencies. “If you don’t hear back in five days, jog on,” and it’s like, “Right, your job, as a recruiter, is literally yeah just to find people, to speak to people, and update them. You’re literally not doing the job you supposed to be doing.”
Katrina Collier (33:23):
The agencies, if you are listening to this, you absolutely have no excuse. You get back to everybody. Okay. Maybe not the people from left field, who really had no skills, send them an email, but everyone else, if you’re a HR recruiter, recruiting HR people, you’re crazy, because you’re missing out, but companies, as well. I don’t like it, and I talk about this in the book. I don’t like it when it says like, “Kind regards, the talent acquisition team.” No, put your name, so people can say, “Actually, I disagree. I have got the skills. Maybe I’m not demonstrating it on this horribly hard to write document,” but let people come back to you. You want to talk to the people who are keen to work with you, and also send them somewhere. “Oh, hey, go and look at our job search tips,” or, “Here’s our behind-the-scenes on Instagram,” or “Join our talent pool.” Give people something. Don’t just-
Lisa Haggar (34:07):
Yeah, help them with their next, because even if they’re not right for you, they’ll be right for someone else, but no, that’s a great point, actually.
Katrina Collier (34:15):
And they all know people, as well. So you think about the roles you’ve turned down, and you could have gone, “It wasn’t right for me, but actually, Katrina, you’d probably really enjoy this,” and you could refer people in, which would cost them nothing.
Lisa Haggar (34:25):
Yeah, and that’s what we’ve done with the people who’ve treated us well. The rest, they’ve said, “Because you’ve got an extensive network, do you have anybody else you’d recommend?” And those who have just [inaudible 00:34:33] we’re like, “No, sorry. No,” because I don’t want [crosstalk 00:34:37] with doing it.
Katrina Collier (34:41):
The man at the end of the table, and the “pass me the salt” guy. No, he’s not getting any referrals this week, or next year.
Lisa Haggar (34:49):
Oh, do you know what? I’ve missed that opportunity. I should have taken a [inaudible 00:34:52] of salt in my bag, and then, just…
Katrina Collier (34:52):
Lisa Haggar (34:57):
Throw it across the table, “Oh!” I could just visualise that, of like, “Oh, [crosstalk 00:35:02] to miss one.”
Katrina Collier (35:03):
Always have your salt in your bag. Oh, dear. Now, if people want to get in touch with you, or follow you along, is the easiest place LinkedIn? Or…
Lisa Haggar (35:12):
Yes, because I’m not on any other platform.
Katrina Collier (35:15):
Lisa Haggar (35:15):
Katrina Collier (35:17):
[inaudible 00:35:17] anywhere else.
Lisa Haggar (35:18):
No. Yeah, so no, I’m not on anywhere apart from LinkedIn. I think I may do, in the future, but I think that I do enough [crosstalk 00:35:27].
Katrina Collier (35:28):
I can see you doing TikToks. Really, I can.
Lisa Haggar (35:29):
Yeah, I’ve been trying to not do them. I don’t think even TikTok is quite ready for me.
Katrina Collier (35:35):
I truly think that is one where I’m happy to rule a line of, “It’s a generational thing, and I’m not the generation.”
Lisa Haggar (35:41):
I have a friend, Steven, he’s really, really good friends with me, and he [inaudible 00:35:47] all of the stuff all the time and it just makes me [inaudible 00:35:48] some really good stuff on there.
Katrina Collier (35:49):
Lisa Haggar (35:49):
I get it’s a platform that, in the right arena, you can do some really good messaging and stuff. I just not quite brave enough, because you know, I think I have a face for newspaper, and…
Katrina Collier (36:01):
Oh, not true. Yeah, no, I do look at it sometimes and go, “Ooh,” but yeah, no, there is some really, really funny stuff, and like I was saying earlier, people are talking about candid experience on this, so.
Lisa Haggar (36:15):
Katrina Collier (36:16):
Thank you so much. This has been a fabulous conversation. Hopefully none of the swearing bothered any of our usual listeners.
Lisa Haggar (36:22):
Yeah, sorry. We should have done that in the beginning to say yeah, “She’s Scottish. She may say, ‘The old bleep,’ and we don’t have a bleeper, so…”
Katrina Collier (36:29):
Who cares? I never care about that. Anyway, thanks again, Lisa.
Lisa Haggar (36:33):
Thanks for having me. Thanks, Katrina.
Katrina Collier (36:35):
Thank you for listening to The Hiring Partner Perspective (Unedited) podcast, proudly supported by the people at WORQDRIVE. Hopefully, you’ve really enjoyed what you heard, and have left feeling inspired, and if so, I would love your help to create real change. Please pass this podcast onto your hiring leaders, and other recruiters, and HR. Even share it on your social channels, if you feel so inclined, but the more reach we can get, the more change we can create. So please remember to subscribe, of course, on your favourite podcast platform, and do come and say, “Hello,” @HiringPartnerPerspective on Instagram, where I share behind-the-scenes of what’s going on. Until next time, thank you.